From: "Andrews, Thomas" To: "'ultrarunners'" Subject: rollerblading for hills Date sent: Tue, 07 Nov 95 08:14:00 PST Regarding trail ultras and hill running. Once I ran a fast marathon, close to my PR. 5 weeks later there was the Voyaguer 50 miler which has lots of hills, in particular a section of steep ups and downs called the "powerlines". I had sore hips after the marathon and so did NO trail running whatsoever. In fact I did no running. Yet I finished 4th overall at Voyaguer. What I did was Rollerblade around the lakes in Minneapolis on the bike paths. On the flat, there were no hills there where I went. I rollerbladed as hard as I could, my favorite workout being twice around one lake as absolutely hard flatout as I could go. Really hammering it and then coming back after an easy day and seeing if I could better that time for the 6 miles or so. It helped my "wind" but I am sure it built up my "quads" as rollerblading puts weight on them. It was really terrific crosstraining, and must have helped on the hills at Voyaguer, as I have no other explanation. Tom, in Minneapolis, where the lakes are freezing now. tandrew@ih.cc.mn.us Date sent: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:31:47 -0500 (EST) From: Anstr Davidson To: Ultra List Subject: Training for Downhills Based on no scientific analysis and only my own prejudices, I disagree with several comments about training for downhills. If I train at all for downhills, it is by running hard *uphills*. Running *hard* downhill (or bounding down stairs two or three at a time) seems to me to risk injury. While you need a little bit of style practice in going downhill, you don't need much. I feel that all of the other stuff like weights, stairmaster, walking up stairs (and coming back down carefully), biking and the normal downhills in training prepare me for going up and down the hill. I wasn't sore at AC100 last year. (Of course, I wasn't very fast, either.) I think that our bodies have only so many hard downhills in them. I will save mine for things like coming off Weaverton Cliffs at JFK next weekend. Anstr Davidson Arlington, VA asad@tmn.com "VHTRC--looking for a new 'President for Life'!" From: BAG122@AOL.COM Date sent: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 13:17:06 -0500 To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Subject: Downhill Running George Beinhorm inquired about training on downhills for major 100's. My comment is..."it's imperative". Norm Klein is right. Everytime I have done WS, it's amazing how many people I pass the last 20 miles, that are walking because their quads have given out. The last 20 miles is my strongest part of the race. I am fortunate that I have great training grounds for that. Part of the descent into our Palo Duro Canyon here has a mile & quarter descent at 10% grade. Repeats....repeats...repeats until I drop. Due to that, I have never, ever, even been stiff in the quads after a major race, including 100's. I am also a firm believer in getting on the ole Stairmaster....... I think that helps, also. Now, if I could just run UP those damn hills, maybe I could do better. Bob Givens (BAG122@aol.com) Date sent: Wed, 08 Nov 95 07:42:56 From: "Furtaw, Ed" (0) To: "MatMahoney" (0) Send reply to: "Furtaw, Ed" (0) Copies to: "ultra" (0) Subject: Re: downhill running Matt, You said: "But around here, I have to do my downhill training on a concrete bridge. Sigh... :-( " Have you considered doing some training on stairs in a tall building? That would probably be good training for racing on steep uphills and downhills, such as at Barkley. Plus you would simulate the aspect of Barkley where you could die if you misplace one footplant! Frozen Ed furtaw@hrc.nevada.edu From: Organization: University of Vermont To: gbeinho@MAIN.GV.NET Date sent: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 09:15:40 EST Subject: Hill Training Priority: normal Hi, I've always had trouble getting myself to do other than run as I feel and avoid things like speed work, etc.. However, this summer, preparing for the VT100, I decided to do some quad specific training. I found a quarter-mile hill, paved and with about three different pitches, and spent an hour once a week speed walking up and running down at a good pace. Not only did it strengthen my quads, but it gave me some pre-race walking practice, which I also generally avoid. In terms of the race, I was a bit slower than in the past several years, but my legs survived it much better. Frankly, I wouldn't overdo it, since the possibility of stress fractures always looms. Ralph Swenson From: HALPIN@MODAL6.JSC.NASA.GOV Date sent: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 7:41:56 -0600 (CST) To: ULTRA@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Copies to: HALPIN@MODAL6.JSC.NASA.GOV Subject: weight workouts to aid hill running Torin Dewey writes: > I will echo comments made previously about the best training to prevent > quad trashing on downhills is doing as many downhills as possible. I am > lucky, however, to live in Boulder where downhills (and uphills!) are not > hard to find. > > Another good exercise that has not been mentioned is the simple leg > extension on a weight machine. By concentrating more on slowly lowering > your leg, you benefit from the eccentric nature of the exercise. I also > find that these exercises help in stabilizing the knee and preventing knee > trashing that is also a dangerous side effect of downhills. I second that. I have been working out on the weight machine religiously for almost 2 years now and it has helped my hill running tremendously. I have stayed with low weights and high reps and I began to notice the benefits after 6 months. I don't lose power going up hills like I used to and I am in more control of my running on downhills now. Living in an area where the only hills are man-made (bridges, overpasses, etc.), this has been an easy way to work on my quads. 38 days to Sunmart Texas Trail Endurance Run (50K) 74 days to Houston-Tenneco Marathon Dennis "the menace" Halpin halpin@modal6.jsc.nasa.gov LBJ Rocket Ranch (alias Johnson Space Center - home of fast astronauts) Houston, Texas Date sent: Mon, 6 Nov 95 15:43:29 -0500 From: "Howard Breinan" Send reply to: "Howard Breinan" To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Subject: downhill training I believe a critical element of downhill training is to actually run downhill to trash your quads in training. Stairmaster builds more of the "uphill" quads. It is hard to duplicate the eccentric contractions experienced in downhill running by other exercises- this is the loading on the quad caused by the muscle lengthening while contacting the ground far out in its range of motion. To become a better and safer downhill runner, concentrate on using a relatively short stride with a very fast turnover. Try to think about lifting your foot up the very instant it hits the trail. Let your legs go free. Don't tense up or pull back- you waste energy braking. You will feel tired due to the very fast turnover, but you are actually doing your legs a favor and they recover in no time at the bottom. There are practical limits to this method: you may have to brake at switchbacks, and you must maintain control on dangerous or crowded trails. As always, you must start slow and build up. If you do not do speedwork, the fast turnover will fry your hamstrings. If you are doing this on pavement, it also works, but you will want to build up your shin muscles. I used to be a slow, conservative downhill runner, but improved dramatically in very little time with this technique. Howie Breinan breinan@ortho.bwh.harvard.edu From: Jason P Hodde Subject: Re: downhill running To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Date sent: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 19:40:26 -0500 (EST) Howie mentioned that stairmaster is designed to work the "uphill quad" muscles more than it is designed to work the downhill ones. I agree that stairmaster entertainment is a concentric exercise that is designed to mimic the uphill motion, but my experience suggests that the eccentric contraction associated with downhill running is also benefitted. Right away, this doesn't seem to make much sense, but the overall outcome of any rigorous training program is an increase in overall strength. I believe that the strength gains associated with the stairmaster exercise are benefical to downhill, as well as uphill, running, mainly due to the increased total lower extremity strength associated with it. Howie mentions that training specificity is important and suggests a method to train the quads for eccentric contractions. I can't agree more, and I have found that his proposed method of short stride - quick turnover works extremely well. Too bad the longest hills in these parts come in the form of highway overpasses! That leads me to another suggestion I forgot the other day: downhill treadmill. We have a treadmill here that allows a grade change from -5 degrees to +15 degrees. I've used the entire range, and I like it, but I don't know if the downhill training works very well. Why? 1) Speed on the treadmill is limited to 12 MPH. When I'm doing downhill work, I often run faster than this. 2) It isn't a natural motion -- the belt is moving in the same direction that you are. The ground doesn't normally do this (maybe after a few beers. . .) Anyone else have experience with downhill running on the treadmill? Just some thoughts! Run hard, run long! Jay Hodde jhodde@ecn.purdue.edu From: Jason P Hodde Subject: Re: Hill running To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Date sent: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 18:58:35 -0500 (EST) My two cents on surviving the downhills at WS, Leadville and any other race with significant climb (it's worked for me): 1. Buy a road bike (the people-powered kind) and go cycling for hours on end. 2. Even though it is the most boring form of exercise in the world, stair climb, stair climb, and stair climb. (Pick up a good novel and read it while you are doing this). And BTW, boring training will be useful mental conditioning!! Of course, if you have significant "hills" in your backyard, that's probably the best training all around. BUT, if you live in Indiana, Iowa, Florida, or any other "flatland" state, the above suggestions really work. Run hard, run long! Jay Hodde jhodde@ecn.purdue.edu Date sent: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 08:17:59 -0700 (MST) From: Jennifer Hesketh Aviles Subject: downhill work/quads To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Everyone's different. I have found that if I don't put in my downhill pounding at a signficant grade many times before doing an ultra with significant descent as part of the overall run, then my quads give out. I found fascinating the comments here re courses found to do this, parti- cularly the 2.5 mile loop or whatever distance it was that included that downhill section. That's why we run Mt. Wrightson here in prep for the Grand Canyon. The uphill is important but I really do think the downhill pounding prep is more important. Jennifer aviles@ccit.arizona.edu who really wanted to be up at GCII this weekend and who hopes for next year From: Jslug1@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 07:36:09 -0500 To: gbeinho@gv.net Subject: Re: OK, who sent in... (and Hardrock advice) George, For the 95 WS I incorporated lots of reclined squats and quad extensions. I also ran many training runs on a trail loop that had almost 5000ft gain and loss over 16miles. It really was a quad pounder til I got used to it. I was really afraid of having quad problems in the race since so many people I know were destroyed by Foresthill, but I never experienced any quad pain or stiffness! Good luck, hope to see you there in 96! janice da jslug1@aol.com Date sent: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 19:26:02 -0600 From: "Karl L. King" To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Subject: downhills/stretching 1) Downhills are hard to train for here in southeast Wisconsin. Two things work well for me: A: Run a course with 300 foot drop in about 1/2 a mile, run multiple loops of it and run the downhill section hard. The eccentric contractions cause soreness the next few days, but that seems to immunize the quads to further downhills thereafter. I do this at least once every month, oftener if possible. B: Use a leg extension machine at the local athletic club and emphasize the eccentric part. Most people kick up hard then let the weight drop back with a gravity assist. What works for me is to go up fast but let the weight down slowly. I had had problems with the vastus medialis ( inner quad ). The leg estensions, with toes pointed out slightly, fixed that completely. I had zero problems there at Vermont. However, I need to do the same with toes pointed in. Vermont trashed my Vastus lateralis ( outer quads ). In the last 12 miles I had to walk the steep downs so compensated by running all the uphills. 2) People have had some interesting comments on stretching injured areas. My experience is that it is impossible to regularly stretch a muscle or tendon injury and expect it to heal. The injured part is the weakest link in the chain that runs bone1 - tendon1 - muscle - tendon2 - bone2. This chain needs to be taken out of tension so that the damaged tissues can heal. Stretching, as normally done, puts the whole chain in tension. The good parts of the chain get a mild stretch but the injured part gets re-injured. What has worked for me on tendonitis is to lengthen the muscle by massage. Assume that the injury is in tendon2. Massage the muscle by stroking from tendon1 towards tendon2. Stop the stroke before reaching tendon2, the sore spot. Tendon2 may have scar tissue that needs breaking up, but you should let a professional sport massage therapist do that work. Icing to re-establish blood flow to the area helps, along with rest. The massage may have to be done daily, and especially before every run ( if you refuse to rest ). I view stretching as preventative in such cases, not curative. I got a good dose of adductor tendonitis ( origin of left gracilis ) because I wasn't stretching the hip rotator muscles. They tightened and shortened, causing eversion of the left foot during running. That put lots of stress on the inside of the leg and led to the tendonitis. It is fixing itself now that I regularly stretch the hip rotators and massage the gracilis by the method noted above. If an area is injured, it is key to figure out WHY it is injured. The fundamental cause may be somewhere else - wrong kind of shoe, one leg shorter than the other, etc, etc. Happy running, Karl King Brown Deer WI From: MatMahoney@AOL.COM Date sent: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 22:53:44 -0500 To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Subject: Re: Training for Downhills I'm interested not just in how you train for downhills, but how successful you think the training was too. When I ran the Pike's Peak marathon in '93, Matt Carpenter set the course record for both the ascent (2:01) and round trip (3:16), but I was amazed at how easily he glided over the boulder strewn trail at a sub-6 pace, dropping 1-2 feet with every step. My descent time was the same as his ascent time, but still fast enough that I had the most negative split (2:40 faster than my 4:41 ascent) and was never passed going down, though I passed 143 runners. The story is the same in 100 milers. At Vermont, Leadville, and Arkansas I walked the uphills and flats while being passed by other runners, but passed them back on the downhills going 6:30-9:00/mile depending on the grade (fastest at 15-20%). I use very little energy running downhill, not breathing hard even at 14,000 feet. I feel very relaxed, run with a long stride, and I let my arms flop around to absorb a lot of the impact. I live in a flat area so the only hill training I do is when I travel to ultras and about once a month when I run intervals on a 2/3 mile long bridge with a 3% grade on concrete. I run intervals both up and down and finish with a very hard downhill sprint for about 200 yards at about a 4:00-4:30/mi pace. I also run intervals or fartlek on flat surfaces about once a week, and lift weights once a week (heavy, low reps) and bike 60-80 miles/week. Before I ran my first trail ultra (Pike's Peak) I had done a lot of hashing and orienteering, so I was comfortable running over rugged terrain, although it was all flat and at shorter distances. I also did one 20 mile run on the bridge. -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@aol.com From: MatMahoney@AOL.COM Date sent: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:51:10 -0500 To: FURTAW@donald.lv-hrc.nevada.edu Copies to: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Subject: Re: downhill running In a message dated 95-11-08 10:52:09 EST, FURTAW@donald.lv-hrc.nevada.edu (Furtaw, Ed) writes: >Have you considered doing some training on stairs in a tall >building? I have tried this. It doesn't hurt my quads, but going downstairs really trashes my calves. It is totally unlike using a stair climbing machine. -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@aol.com From: MatMahoney@AOL.COM Date sent: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 13:58:27 -0500 To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Subject: Re: downhill running In a message dated 95-11-07 07:07:36 EST, jhodde@ecn.purdue.edu (Jason P Hodde) writes: >Anyone else have experience with downhill running on the treadmill? I've never seen a downhill treadmill or one that goes 12 MPH, but I guess the reason they are rare is because you need a big motor, lots of power, and a longer belt, all of which makes them expensive. In any case, I don't think I could simulate the braking action of soft dirt, gravel, scree, and mud, hopping over rocks and logs, and grabbing small trees to swing around switchbacks. But around here, I have to do my downhill training on a concrete bridge. Sigh... :-( -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@aol.com From: MatMahoney@AOL.COM Date sent: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 10:53:53 -0500 To: gbeinho@GV.NET, ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Subject: Re: OK, who sent in... (and Hardrock advice) In a message dated 95-11-03 02:44:35 EST, gbeinho@MAIN.GV.NET (George Beinhorn) writes: >I'd be extremely interested in hearing from anyone who's trained >specifically for the downhills that are such a major feature of all >of the great trail 100's. WS100 race director Norm Klein says 80% of >the people who drop out of Western States do so because of quads >trashed by the downhills. I don't know if I can help, but I usually have a good downhill run compared to my uphill and flat running (judging by where I get passed in races). The technique is hard to describe except to say that I "let off the brakes" and let gravity do the work. I seem to expend very little energy, for instance on a -10% grade and 7-8 minute pace I am not breathing very much even trails up to 14,000 ft. I don't usually have any quad soreness either (such as after Leadville), provided that I do a long hilly run 3-8 weeks earlier (such as the Vermont 100). Since I live at sea level in an area without hills, I have to substitute speedwork or interval training. Running fast for short periods (1-2 minute intervals) teaches you to be efficient at a fast pace, which is just what you need for downhills. I run very little (15 mile/week) but I do some type of interval or fartlek workout every week. Also about once or twice a month I run intervals, both uphill and downhill, on a 2/3 mile long bridge with a 3% grade and concrete surface (since there are no other hills where I live). I make each interval progressively harder and usually finish with an all-out downhill sprint for about 200 yards. I also ride a bike and lift weights (heavy, low reps, all major muscles) which helps I guess. -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@aol.com Date sent: 03 Nov 1995 08:03:08 PST From: "MEDINGER, JOHN" Subject: Quads and WS To: gbeinho@gv.net From: MEDINGER, JOHN -MEDI To: OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR Subject: Quads and WS Date: 1995-11-03 07:52 Priority: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ George - There are several big time downhills on the WS course: 1) last 3+ miles before Duncan Canyon aid station 2) leaving Cavanaugh Ridge down to Deep Canyon aid station 3) Last Chance to the Swinging Bridge 4) Deadwood Cemetery to bottom of ElDorado Canyon (this one's really bad) 5) Gorman Ranch Road to bottom of Volcano Canyon (not so bad) 6) Foresthill to Cal 1 aid station. For the most part they are not all that steep. But they are LONG. For the middle of the packers, many of these downhills will have you running continuously downhill for an hour or so. It is this pounding -- especially after your legs get a bit tired -- that destroys people. Also, I think that a lot of people run too hard on the downhills. I always try to relax on the downhills and just flow with it so I can save my legs; if someone wants to pass, I let 'em go right by. If you ran SNER then I'm thinking you must live in northern California. If so, there is NO SUBSTITUTE for running the actual WS trail -- especially the canyons -- in training for WS . You should plan to make a staple out of doing the tortuous 38-miler from Foresthill to Last Chance and back. It's an all-day run (9 hrs for a 24-hr runner) but it will get your quads ready. You should do this run 3 or 4 times between late April and the race. If you can't train on the WS trail itself, you need to try to find a hill (mountain) that allows you to run continuously downhill for an hour or more. Run down/ walk back up and do four or five repeats. Is this a fun sport or what? - John medi@chevron.com Date sent: Wed, 08 Nov 95 08:40:33 PST From: "Scott, Dave" To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU Subject: Re: downhills, weights, treadmills(?) Dr. Torin Dewey Writes: Also, Jay Hodde writes, regarding downhill treadmill running..... >2) It isn't >a natural motion -- the belt is moving in the same direction that >you are. The ground doesn't normally do this (maybe after a few >beers. . .) Pardon my denseness, but how is it possible that a treadmill belt can move in the same direction that you are? Wouldn't this send you flying across the health club? Torin Dr. Dewey; The statement above by Jay Hodde to the treadmill belt moving in the same direction that you are is actually correct because neither you nor the belt actually move (Also, remember botom setcion of the belt is moving in the opposite direction as the top part which nets zero movement for the whole belt zero movement. What Jay is trying to say is that the top part of the belt is moving in the same direction as your feet are. This is not a natural motion. Dave Scott, AA Libral Arts dscott@smtpgate.xicor.com Date sent: Fri, 03 Nov 95 07:39:23 PST From: "Scott, Dave" To: gbeinho@gv.net Subject: Re[2]:Downhill Training Downhill Training. My advice is to a find a long downhill trail or dirt road, at least 2 miles long (4 would be better) and it must drop more than 500 feet per mile average or it is not steep enough. A paved road is better than nothing but make it steeper and run down slower. Run at least 10 miles of downhill per week. Riding the bike is a good addition. I found that riding a road bike on flat pavement as fast as you can for 20 miles helped me. Even a stationary bike ridden hard for 45 minutes will strengthen your quads. These are the things I have done to improve my downhill strength. I do not know your fitness level so you must adjust accordingly. The most important training I do in preparation for the only 100 mile race I run (WS) is train on the course. I make at least 10 trips to the course and run all but the last 20 miles (that part is too flat) at least 3 times, (30 to 50 miles of it each time). If you have several choices of downhill trails I would pick the roughest, rockiest, steepest one. Dave Scott ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: OK, who sent in... (and Hardrock advice) Author: gbeinho@gv.net at smtpgate Date: 11/2/95 11:27 PM I'd be extremely interested in hearing from anyone who's trained specifically for the downhills that are such a major feature of all of the great trail 100's. WS100 race director Norm Klein says 80% of the people who drop out of Western States do so because of quads trashed by the downhills. Date sent: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:49:54 -0800 To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU From: sederenzo@LBL.GOV (Stephen Derenzo) I have found that raising the back end of the treadmill with three wooden planks (2 x 12) gives me a -14% grade and a very time efficient eccentric workout. WARNING 1- This workout is HARD on the treadmill- I have a heavy duty Trotter- a light-duty model might be damaged. I can't operate faster than 9 min/mi or the house breaker will blow (it takes a lot of power to lift me at that speed and grade). WARNING 2- This workout is very stressful on the legs- I have found that when I have not done it for a while, a 30 min downhill workout can produce as much quad soreness for the next 4 days as 12 hr runs on asphalt used to do. HOWEVER, the legs adapt to this stress (building connective tissue) so that I can work up to doing a 2 hr downhill workout every weekend (which I do before long races) with almost no delayed muscle soreness. So while this eccentric pounding is very stressful, the body is amazing at adapting to it. By the way, at 9 min/mi, 2 hrs is 13.3 miles, and at -14% the descent distance is 9800 ft, a remarkable amount for 2 hrs investment in time. Using this training method, I can run 50 mi trail runs without developing quad soreness and I resumed training (with minor soreness) a few days after WS100 this year. Good luck to all and take it easy. Stephen Derenzo Pinole, CA sederenzo@LBL.GOV Stephen Derenzo ______________________________________________________________________ Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory Mail Stop 55-121 Berkeley, CA 94720 (510) 486-4097 sederenzo@lbl.gov http://Kookaburra.LBL.Gov University of California Electrical Engineering and Computer Sciences Department 463 Cory Hall Berkeley, CA 94720 derenzo@EECS.berkeley.edu (automatically routed to sederenzo@lbl.gov) http://hera.EECS.Berkeley.EDU:80/~derenzo _______________________________________________________________________ Date sent: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:47:39 -0800 To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU From: sederenzo@LBL.GOV (Stephen Derenzo) Subject: downhill treadmill running I have found that raising the back end of the treadmill with three wooden planks (2 x 12) gives me a -14% grade and a very time efficient eccentric workout. WARNING 1- This workout is HARD on the treadmill- I have a heavy duty Trotter- a light-duty model might be damaged. I can't operate faster than 9 min/mi or the house breaker will blow (it takes a lot of power to lift me at that speed and grade). WARNING 2- This workout is very stressful on the legs- I have found that when I have not done it for a while, a 30 min downhill workout can produce as much quad soreness for the next 4 days as 12 hr runs on asphalt used to do. HOWEVER, the legs adapt to this stress (building connective tissue) so that I can work up to doing a 2 hr downhill workout every weekend (which I do before long races) with almost no delayed muscle soreness. So while this eccentric pounding is very stressful, the body is amazing at adapting to it. By the way, at 9 min/mi, 2 hrs is 13.3 miles, and at -14% the descent distance is 9800 ft, a remarkable amount for 2 hrs investment in time. Using this training method, I can run 50 mi trail runs without developing quad soreness and I resumed training (with minor soreness) a few days after WS100 this year. Good luck to all and take it easy. Stephen Derenzo ______________________________________________________________________ Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory Mail Stop 55-121 Berkeley, CA 94720 (510) 486-4097 sederenzo@lbl.gov http://Kookaburra.LBL.Gov University of California Electrical Engineering and Computer Sciences Department 463 Cory Hall Berkeley, CA 94720 derenzo@EECS.berkeley.edu (automatically routed to sederenzo@lbl.gov) http://hera.EECS.Berkeley.EDU:80/~derenzo _______________________________________________________________________ Date sent: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:00:02 -0600 (CST) From: Tim W Neckar To: ultratalk Subject: downhill running Hi Everyone! Being from Houston and having no hills whatsoever to prepare for the Badwater run this past summer, I learned to be innovative. Twice a week I would run up and down the aisles of Rice Stadium (Football Stadium). Going down I would skip every other step to pound out the quads. Granted, it only lasted for 15-20 seconds per time down. But after a 100 or more times of doing this, there was definitly a training effect. This is just one suggestion. Tim Neckar(tneckar@tenet.edu) Date sent: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:58:48 -0700 To: ultra@caligari.Dartmouth.EDU From: tdewey@NEXAGEN.COM (Torin Dewey) Subject: downhills, weights, treadmills(?) I will echo comments made previously about the best training to prevent quad trashing on downhills is doing as many downhills as possible. I am lucky, however, to live in Boulder where downhills (and uphills!) are not hard to find. Another good exercise that has not been mentioned is the simple leg extension on a weight machine. By concentrating more on slowly lowering your leg, you benefit from the eccentric nature of the exercise. I also find that these exercises help in stabilizing the knee and preventing knee trashing that is also a dangerous side effect of downhills. Also, Jay Hodde writes, regarding downhill treadmill running..... >2) It isn't >a natural motion -- the belt is moving in the same direction that >you are. The ground doesn't normally do this (maybe after a few >beers. . .) Pardon my denseness, but how is it possible that a treadmill belt can move in the same direction that you are? Wouldn't this send you flying across the health club? Torin -- o/`\ <\__,|Dr. Torin M. Dewey, tdewey@nexstar.com | __o "> |NeXagen, Inc. 2860 Wilderness Pl., Boulder, CO 80301 | _`\<,_ ` \(303)546-7698 ofc. (303)415-0308 home | (*)/ (*) \home address: 711 Alpine Ave. #B, Boulder, CO 80304|